Tuesday, September 13, 2011

What's Happening to Apostolic Kids?

LLLReader, who has contributed her insights for many years to this blog, asked me to post this:
Having recently moved back to Battle Ground, I recognize that I have certainly been out of the loop. Yesterday I was at a meeting with a real cross-section of community members. The subject of the OALC boys who killed all those cats came up. I was familiar with that event, since it has been covered by newspapers and letters to the editor. What I wasn't aware of is how Apostolic children in this community are behaving.

A principal stated that his main problems are with the Apostolic kids. One women said her daughter drives her children to school because they were being bullied by the Apostolic kids on the bus. It's not all the kids, of course, but enough are showing bad behavior that the reputation of all of the students is being effected. There was a general consensus that the Apostolic children, especially the boys, are a little out of control.

What is going on? Back in the day, when I was in school here, the Apostolics were model students. I didn't say anything, just listened with sadness. I have some fine relatives, with fine children, who I know are doing well. I don't know of specific families whose kids are misbehaving, and I don't know if it's mainly the Hockinson or Brush Prairie Churches.

I thought carefully about what the causes for this problem might be. Possibly families that don't value education would have children that don't see the point of it either. Some of the men are pretty macho types, and their boys might have trouble taking orders from female teachers. Since many of the students aren't allowed to participate in school activities like sports, band, clubs, etc. they just don't build any bond with the school. It's interesting that my generation, and my Dad's generation, WERE allowed to be in sports. There were some good athletes from the church back in my day.

I have talked here before about the old preachers being kinder. I felt that the current crop has a more harsh attitude, could that be effecting the families? I don't really know the reasons, probably only the families who are raising these kids would have the answers.

What to do about it? My feeling is that the preachers need to address it. They probably won't. I hope that these children can become better citizens. Maybe the Moms are going to have to step up. I'll just pray for all of them, it's all that I can think to do.

LLLreader
What do you think, readers? If you are in the OALC, are you seeing these issues addressed from the pulpit, or at gatherings?

45 comments:

  1. After reading your post, I speculate that the OALC is becoming more of a fundamentalist church. With all the bad stories about the church on the internet, I wonder if the older generation is getting nervous that the younger ones will start questioning more and won't follow the faith. These kids no longer have to sit and wonder, they can search for all the answers on the internet. The only way to get the kids to stop questioning is to control them and withdraw the kids so much from mainstream society to the point it would be extremely difficult to leave the OALC and fit in with the rest of society. The more pressure the OALC gets from the outside, the worse it's going to get inside the church. The OALC isn't the only church trying to keep their members out of the public eye for fear of judgement from the public. We saw that with the sexual abuse situation. Someone awhile back put a group for the FALC on facebook and someone in the FALC told them to take it down. I am curious about what their reasoning was for requesting it to be taken down. If someone can enlighten me on this, I would appreciate it.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I am from the Apostolic Lutheran Church in Hockinson. I noticed that you referenced the Hockinson church with the one in Brush Prairie. I'm not sure whether you realize this, but they are from two separate denominations. They split quite a few years ago. Before my time anyway. I apologize if you do and if I just misread the post. I understand that it is easy to get the two denominations confused. In the Hockinson church there are a number of high school students that play school sports. People from the church also are involved with helping others in the community.
    Thanks

    ReplyDelete
  3. I have a few ideas...and they may or may not be true, you each will have to see how it sits with you. I have left the FALC, and was the second oldest in a family of 14.

    In the larger families, the only way to get attention is to act out, otherwise you are neglected. Any attention is better than no attention.

    Also, the way to make the children behave and follow the strict rules is to do so by punishment, they are exhibiting behaviors that are taught, domination of the weak.

    And they are for sure taught that anyone outside of the church is a second class citizen, going to hell and unworthy, and are just showing their sentiments to all "unbelievers".

    The kids are just treating folks like they have been treated. They don't come up with this behavior on their own. Perhaps when in a group the power and daring gets larger, but it is the same energy.

    I used to believe that most in these churches have high morals and values, but now I see the treatment of women and children as forms of abuse.

    Women are not equally treated and you all wonder why the children don't treat others equally....

    Children in huge families are not getting the attention they need and crave and are often not welcome or felt wanted, due to the high numbers and how difficult it is to care for them.

    To me, the root source is the cause for what is happening now.

    It isn't so much what the preachers are preaching but how individuals are following the 'rules' even if it brings strife into the family home. The breakdown begins when there is no individual power or empowerment. You then get bullys and victims.

    I would be interested in hearing individual stories on how it felt to be raised in these societies, where you came after the faith.

    I feel my mother wasn't a woman who loved children and wanted a whole bunch, instead in order to get to heaven she had to keep from sinning. Children are highly intuitive, they know and feel what is not said.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I'm just wondering who you are referring to when you say FALC. I have been seeing that a lot in this blog and don't quite understand what it means.

    ReplyDelete
  5. FALC stands for First Apostolic Lutheran Church. You can find more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadianism_in_America

    ReplyDelete
  6. Ah, ok thanks. I go to the ALCA church in Hockinson, so I shouldn't say anything more about the FALC, since I don't really know about them.

    ReplyDelete
  7. This is interesting that I found this blog as my son is one of the children being bullied by OALC boys at Amboy Middle School. I now have a son who is stressed, sad, and nervous about going to school because every day he has to defend himself against boys who call him names and humiliate him. I am tired of this going on. This is only the second week of school but it has been an ongoing problem since Yacolt Primary. I have been to school and the admins recognize that there is a big problem. My son is 12 and my daughter is 25. She still has good friends from the OALC. It was not like this when she was little. I am beyond frustrated. I have a beautiful son. He should not have to deal with this treatment. We are trying to find a solution,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As a former teacher at BGHS, my experience with talking with the fathers of some students was very positive. Fathers are the ones with the power within the family, in most cases. Many female teachers had challenges with the young men, who are not necessarily taught to respect women. A few of the young women were feeling the normal rebellion of growing up, embellished by their observations of their future in the church. Some of them were more than a handful in class, but most of my dearly loved former students were from this religious group, and I maintain contact with them, well into my retirement. I still miss many of them, as I live some distance away now. In any case, do not allow your son to continue being bullied--it's criminal. If talking to the fathers doesn't work, you might try contacting the pastors or leaders in the congregations. While I was there, I believe there was an Apostolic male on the school board.

      Delete
  8. I think the reason the preachers may be getting harsher is because they are starting to feel like they are losing control.

    I talked to a school counselor in BG at my kids' school, and she said their biggest problem is OALC girls, click against click. They are terribly mean to each other, and it's all about clothes. No surprise since that's all they have to fight about.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was just reading an article by a former Amish woman who said that in the Amish church, the young females treat one another viciously, much worse than most people's public schools experience. In my experience, it was quite the same in the particular Apostolic Lutheran church that I grew up in, and it didn't end when the women grew up, but continued to young adulthood. Those who say there is no bullying just has never been in the down position, has never been the target of a smear campaign, or has never been female. When women have essentially no voice in the church, little in their marriages, are relegated to roles such as cleaning the church and nursery and serving food, not allowed even to teach the children in Sunday school, this is all they have left, to tear one another down. As for me, I said no thanks and left years and years too late. Though I miss my community, every day I thank God for giving me the strength to get out. Once I met a woman from Northern Norway who grew up in a community that was full of Norwegian Laestadians (I had no idea there were Norwegian Laestadians, but there are, and they have several of their own groups, most of which are descendants of Finnish immigrants to Norway). She asked me if the American Laestadians were as mean to one another as they are in Norway, she has met many people who have left those communities who feel positively broken. So, my challenge, to Laestadians everywhere, can you please be a little more KIND to one another? And if you hear your children tearing apart a child from your own community, please talk to them about bullying? If the other child is doing something which you don't approve, talk about the behavior, not the child. If you all are worried about your reputations that people are on this board talking about your church, give them less to talk about by being a little more kind, don't give the people who leave your group something to talk about anymore. --Saddened more than disgruntled

      Delete
  9. All the kids do is chew tobacco and hate on nice people and call them horrible names. These kids ruin good schools such as Battleground and Hockinson. There so bad the kids call them bunners.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Those bunners be gone!

    ReplyDelete
  11. A strange thing that i noticed recently is when the other kids are playing on electronic video games the walk over and say the game is stupid and tell them they "always have ipads everyday".

    In fact most of the kids say that "Bunners" are known for hating technology.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I've had to deal with a lot of bad kids (Im a school bus driver)but the worse so far are the bunner boys! They like to get a gang of bunners together to bully other kids, they have foul mouths and are disrespectful to adult females. These kids need to be spanked! And these parents need to stop having so many children so they can do a better job raising a few not a dozen!

    ReplyDelete
  13. I am in the oalc church. I married at 19 and have six gorgeous model looking gifted children. unlike some of the men there my husband is very respectful and takes wonderful care of everything. I lived in the brush prairie area for8 years and then moved back to the Midwest. my children were in sports for awhile but they are too expensive for a family of our size. also regarding one of the posts athletic ability is a gift from God just like intellectual ability. my children are talented athletes and I wish we could afford to be part. We moved away because my kids were not accepted in the church . I think if you do anything different you are shunned by most of the church. I wear a little makeup so not very many accept me. We moved back to a great school district but I noticed the people in the church here are the same. God doesn't want people to gossip and judge but that is what many do.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Thanks for commenting here, and let me say that I am very sorry your children were not accepted for their gifts, and that some sports are so expensive. I certainly know what that is like!

    What keeps you in the church?

    ReplyDelete
  15. the church is not all bad. I just don't agree with many aspects of it. I want my daughters to go to college and my 15 year old hopes to attend a university this year. I believe many families don't value education. some of the members are starting to get it but many don't or don't want to. I don't honestly know what church I would attend if I didn't go there and I want to continue to take my family somewhere to worship God.

    ReplyDelete
  16. I really wish more of the people were less judgemental. sometimes I am not sure what keeps me there to answer your question. is there another loving community full of Christians?

    ReplyDelete
  17. also I think many of the children that act out are not getting enough attention at home. and it's not just because they have so many kids it's actually caused more by them not being involved enough in their children's lives. they need to do a lot more for them talk to them have fun with them. I am raising 6 children and I get lots of compliments outside the church. but I believe by having children I have a huge responsibility to care for them 100%!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  18. some of them drive very expensive cars and travel a lot . I had one boy that I brought swimming and I found out he couldn't swim. but his family had 4 cars. where are the values?

    ReplyDelete
  19. My parents were from FALC

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My parents are from the FALC too i think i know who you are .

      Delete
  20. talking about judging... listen to all of you

    ReplyDelete
  21. It's not that we don't value education. I homeschooled my kids because there is NO education at all to speak of in the public school. And i am sorry you are so angry at the church. My mom used to teach us kids(yep,im alc,and there are 10 of us;))that when the church let's you down(and it will)we don't go there to worship the church,anyway. I'm sorry kids have been mean to your kids, but try to realize we are not all that way. Nor are we all out to trash our childhood church.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Something i see is when ppl are unhappy w their home church, they just keep looking. The ppl in the new church are probably the same as the ppl in the old. Just sinful ppl. So they keep trying to find a perfect church. Not gonna happen.

    ReplyDelete
  23. But there is one who is perfect! Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the son of the world!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, but his name isn't Lars Levi Laestadius
      was that snarky?
      really I don't mean to be snarky. really.

      Delete
    2. No of course it isn't snarky. That is true. I hope i never look to laestadius for my savior. The thing that was unique about laestadius was that he preached to sin burdened hearts that they could believe their sins forgiven in the name of Jesus and for the sake of His shed blood. There is the gospel, to be lifted up as a standard to this poor broken world. There is a sinbreaking power in the name and blood of Jesus. That is my hope for salvation! I'm so glad you brought that up, because I'd never want anyone to think that my Lamb of God, my hope of Eternal Life was lars laestadius. He was just another slower, throwing out the good seed, proclaiming a solution for my,your,the whole world's sin problem. A crucified Jesus! Today i want to say how thankful i am that when i stand before God at the last judgement, He will view me thru the merits of Jesus. God will be satisfied with that. "And having made peace thru the blood of His cross,by him to reconcile all things unto Himself."col 1:20

      Delete
    3. Sorry:) that auto correct. I meant to say " he was just another sower."

      Delete
  24. Your testimony sounds right, but, it has been my 70 years experience that the Laestadian movement indeed believes in forgiveness in Jesus name and shed blood, but, they believe it must be delivered by confession and absolution and that doesn't get you born again. It is by believing and believing only that you can get saved. When it comes to actually getting saved ,absolution becomes a work, God is looking for faith alone, that's why we have so many church splits, many religious people ,but, only a few born against .


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. True. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. But when you go to walmart,what brings you there? Your car? The road? Signs? Gas? Money? It is all necessary. So,with confession and absolution. That's not why I'm saved. The reason i confess my sin is simply because it is a command of God. " confess your faults one to another and pray together that ye may be healed." I hope my quotes are correct,I'm just going by memory here. When Jesus left this earth, He gave to His disciples the power to forgive sins. We,too as sons and daughters of God, have the power of preaching that gospel to a needy heart. I was raised in a Christian home. All my young life,i tried to walk as a child of God. When the Holy Spirit convicted my heart of son, i confessed that son. My dad or mom, or whoever i had wronged would encourage me to "believe it forgiven in Jesus name and blood." That was a comfort to my young heart. And as the years passed by, i continued along that path. It was a good way.God was at work. I came to the place where i had my life in order. Anyone i had wronged, i had made things right with. And i remember talking to an old christian."everything is good in my life! Its all lined up! But still i have no peace." Their reply? ''Now you have to look to a Savior." What?! Its that easy? Yes, my parents had told me time and again, its all about Jesus. But God had never before given faith to me. That was where my journey of faith began. And now, 15 years later, I'm still trusting that Heavens gates will ooen to me because of the faith God placed in my heart. I can't always believe. Many times i doubt. But you know what? Jesus is always the same. I know that His work on calvary was good enough to save me. And in that simple faith i live, and in that i will die. So what brings us to walmart? Or to heaven? Confession absolution? Baptism? Holy Communion? Its all necessary. God brings us to the cross and to Jesus.by these ' means of grace'. I can clearly see in my life how confession brought me to nothing,and thereby,my only hope could be Jesus. After all,the Bible says that the "law is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ". I thank God for the good work the law has accomplished in my heart. And i pray that i would never leave the knowledge that faith in Jesus, and that alone,will avail as a foundation on the day when heaven and earth passes away.

      Delete
  25. You sound like a genuinely humble person, you say what brings you to Walmart or to heaven, confession? Absolution? baptism? Holy communion? and you say it's all necessary.Funny thing. The Bible does'nt say that. The Bible says there are two absolutes, without the shedding of
    blood there is no remission of sin, the other absolute is without faith it is impossible to please God. You did'nt include faith in your list because you had church works in mind. I was like that too in the 30 years that I sat in. an Apostolic Lutheran pew. Thinking those things that you listed are necessary to get saved are the very things that prevent people from getting born again. God isn't going to place hiss spirit into a person who is trusting in his church, or is trusting in church works. Luther ought to be our example, He did'nt get saved by confession and absolution, he did'nt get saved by baptism, or by taking communion, neither did Luther get saved by belonging to the right church.Luther got born again when the spirit revealed to him, the just shall live. by FAITH. There again is the word that you left off your list.
    God placed the thief on the cross for our benefit, he got saved with his hands and feet tied, He wasn't a member of a right church, he was'nt baptised, he did'nt partake of communion, he did'nt confess his list of sin's, nobody laid their hands on him. He just recognised that Jesus was who he claimed to be.The son of God, The saviour of the world, and God gave him faith to believe, faith, that word you left off your list.I'm not saying your list does'nt have a place and a purpose, But you are placing the cart before the horse, and your so called required list will actually prevent you from being born again. Why? Because you are robbing God. It's his grace, grace, grace, and not church rituals.
    l




    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh im sorry if i was unclear. The reason i left faith off my 'list' was because i was talking about the means of grace God uses to bring us TO faith. And i believe i mentioned ' the faith God has placed in my heart being the only thing that will open heavens doors to me. And you misunderstand me greatly when you accuse me of ' having church works in mind'. Actually quite early on in my post i clarified that. I mentioned confession and absolution simply because someone had mentioned it in an earlier post. And i said that that is NOT why i am saved. I said i confess the sin that burdens my heart because it is a command of God. And as a child of God, i want to obey Him. But again, i am sorry if i worded things unclearly. Always the goal of the work of the law is faith. The goal of holy communion is to strenghten our FAITH. The goal of baptism is to establish a covenant between God and man, and i can only think that would consist of FAITH. I would never want to diminish the necessity of faith,for truely if you have ever read the faith chapter in Hebrews,that is clearly the saving ingredient. I speak of the things that brought me to faith. For as i mentioned without faith it is impossible to please him. I meant that they were ' necessary' in that they were necessary to ' bring us to the cross and to Jesus'.

      Delete
    2. I have an issue with Luther being our example. It should be Jesus

      Delete
  26. Of course Jesus should. be our example of how to live and not Luther, I was just pointing to the fact that Luther proved to the world that there is no such thing as a "one and only right church" otherwise the reformation would never have happened, and been successful, and we all would be Catholics. today,and his list of what he had to do came to nothing,when God revealed to him it by "grace thru faith"and not by any list. And why was the law given? It was given to condemn us, and bring evert human under sin.So every body would know that they needed a saviour, then they may respond to the gospel when they hear it. But the problem is the Laestadian system claims the gospel as their own, and so do others.God rejects that and the people that are diehard in believing that lie.
    Well anyway I would'nt be so vocal on this matter, but I have several hundred of my extended family in several different church factions, including ED the author...and I am afraid for them..Matt

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The reformation was successful? in what way? historically the "Reformation" was more about political power in Europe than it was about faith. But then that requires a little knowledge of history.

      Delete
  27. You can't connect with God historically, You can only find God thru revelation of his word. And the spirit revealed, salvation by grace thru faith to Luther, at least to a point that a revival started and spread thru much of the world. Luther took two steps out of the Catholic church but still carried a lot of false baggage. Other reformers were used by God to continue to bring the Church more in line with Paul' gospel of grace that the Bible instructs for this dispensation of grace. Luther had a break thru and we should be thankful. But Luther did'nt see clearly in all areas, Hitler said part of the reason he killed so many Jews, is because he read Luther's writings, and Luther had no use for the Jews.That's a well documented fact revealed in the Nuremberg trails.The Catholic church and Luther held the opinion that the Jews were the Christ killers. And that's what happens when you don't read the Bible for yourself, and when you don't think for yourself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just for the sake of discussion, you say that Luther was led by the Holy Spirit. You say other reformers were used by God to bring the teaching more in line with Paul's Gospel. How do you know that? Every "Christian" church I know of claims that the Holy Spirit is alive and working through their particular church and denomination. Every Christian church uses the bible to try to back up their claims. The Catholic Church believes that they are the Church instituted by Christ when he said (in reference to Peter) Upon this Rock (Petros, or Peter) I will build my Church and the Powers of Hell shall not prevail against it. They believe that the Holy Spirit has (as Christ Promised
      ), stayed with the Church through the ages. Protestants believe that the Spirit led breakaway movements....etc. Interestingly, the Catholic Church does not believe, contrary to popular belief among fundamentalists, that they are the only ones saved. There is a belief that the Holy Spirit moves and is active in people (Gasp!) outside of their particular denomination. So do many other Christian Churches.
      I believe in God, but I believe that we humans try to create God in our image, saying we are right, we know God's mind, and you don't. A wonderful Muslim lady I have had the pleasure of working with said that her father always told her that God is so far beyond human comprehension, that we try to make him comprehensible by acting and thinking that he is like us.
      Interestingly, the bible says that God created humankind, in his image and likeness. Given that we are all created by this God, then we are all brothers and sisters.
      Perhaps if we spent more time looking for commonality rather than exulting and amplifying difference, we would have much more peaceful lives.
      Unbeliever

      Delete
  28. You covered a lot of ground, As far as Peter being the rock that God's church was to be built upon, c-mon, only the Catholics believe that. Every one knows that Christ is the Head of the church, and we are his body here on earth. God never intended on having a brick and mortar world church headquarters, like the Catholics claim that the Vatican is. God's design was to have local congregations with local church officials only, answering to Jesus the head, thru the holy spirit.All this business of a pope and cardinals is all manmade and straight from satan,'s playbook. The Holy spirit does'nt follow the denomination, He indwells every born again believer.That's what makes a person born again, God placing His spirit within whosoever will believe in Jesus. It's like Luther found out, the church is invisible, you can't know who is a believer until he gives testimon

    In fact a religious person does not know when they are not ,born again, that's why the Apostolic, Laestadians, and Catholics don't know that they have a problem, Satan is smart enough to give religious people such a good feeling that people can think, surely this is right, you know that participating in sisu, nisu, and sauna with a group of people with a "right church mentality", I have been there and done that, it's receiving to say the least.But when God places his spirit within you know for sure that you are born from above, and you will be asking your preacher or priest, what in the world are you teaching? And the next thing you know, you will be shown the ,left foot of Apostolic fellowship.
    Here is a good verse that should help all religious people that have a list of things to help them get close to God , as Apostolic and Laestadians have, and somehow faith does'nt make the list. Rom-4,5......To him who does not work. (No list, just a down and out sinner),but believeth on HIM that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness, just like the thief on the cross. But as far as a Apostolic Lutheran,born into a so called christian home, and into a right church,the only one with the holy spirit.Credentials galore, church works galore, it's almost impossible to believe that you are totally ungodly, especially when you are cleaning yourself up with confession and absolution. Pardon the phrase-you are putting a new dress on a old whore, been there done.

    ReplyDelete
  29. So did Christianity go forth from Christ to Peter and the rest of the Apostles or not? The early Church (the thing we refer to as the "Body of Christ" on earth...the "Flock of Believers" etc) is what became the Catholic Church. The faith and The Spirit resided in the Catholic Church. All Christian denominations share the common ancestry of Christ and his Apostles...just as we all share Jewish ancestry.
    As far as being shown "the left foot of Apostolic Fellowship" no need for that, I was raised in it...and found it wanting. There may be truth found there, but it is all twisted into judgements of who is saved, who isn't. As far as being "Born Again"...spare me. I tire of people who define God based on themselves. The problem with your statements are that they show little understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church, or the actual history of Christianity.
    Unbeliever

    ReplyDelete
  30. Did Christianity go forth from Christ to Peter and the rest of the apostles? No. The ministry of Jesus was under the law for the benefit of Isreal ,to fulfill God's covenant promises to the nation of Is real. All of His ministry was for the lost sheep of Is real, as He put it.Jesus told his disciples more then once, not to go to the gentiles, that's everyone that is not a Jew,that's us. We are under grace, not under the law.In fact Jesus never even used the word, grace. That's hard to believe,but you can easily check it out with the concordance.Jesus was under the law, the 12 apostles were all under the law. The Apostles did'nt even know about the death ,burial and ressurection as God's salvation plan until much later. The 12 were expecting Jesus to bring in the ,earthly kingdom.How could Jesus pass on Christianity to the 12 if he never even explained to them his death ,burial, and resurrection?They had no clue that there was going to be a gentile church age.
    How did the gentile church get started, and spread.God revealed grace thru faith to Paul. Whatever the. 12 learned about the age of grace to us gentiles they learned from Paul, and they were'nt eager to learn and spread. The Jews were like the Apostolics, they thought they were the only people God was dealing with. If you think you should be able to trace where Christianity traveled, use the Ethiopian unuck as an example. Trace where it went from him.
    The problem with my statements is not my misunderstanding of the Catholic church. I understand that it is a phony church from the get go. Consider the Apostles creed, when was it written? About 300 years AD, it's supposed to spell out what the church believes. Then why does'nt it give a clear gospel message? It sounds more like a paper trying to more then one groups approval. Like politics. Sorry it doesn't represent the dispensation of grace. Here is the gospel; On the cross, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself,then having made peace by the blood of the cross, God stopped imputing our sin's against us. Why did God stop imputing our sin's against us? Because Jesus paid for every sin that mankind has, and ever will commit, except unbelief.Then this verse finishes it. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Jesus shall not perish, but has everlasting life.That's the Gospel,and the Church creed should sound something like that.....don't you think the blog administrator would want to stop this? We are on the wrong type of thread.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Matt,your comment made me sad. You said the problem is that the laestadians want to claim the gospel as theirs...you don't understand! It IS ours! Its mine. Its yours. Its there for the whole world. Jesus said come unto me. Still today,He calls sinful mankind unto Himself. He wants to gather us as His little children and say come to papa. His desire for everyone is that we would avail ourselves of the forgiveness that is in the blood of Jesus. That is my refuge today. The wounds of Jesus. When i look at myself, I'm not anywhere near good enough. Well i know the depth of my ungodliness. But also,in the Bible i read that God was pleased with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Matt, know this today. The gospel IS YOURS!:)

    ReplyDelete
  32. Excellent. That's exactly how I believe, you sound so innocent, like you escaped Apostolic Lutheranism. You must have been living in a bubble to escape. But when Apostolic Lutheran and Laestadian little children go and tell their neighbor kids that they are going to go to hell because they belong to the wrong church, is that spreading the gospel? Are they spreading the good news that Jesus paid for your sins and you little neighbor kids ,just believe in Jesus and will be saved. C-mon this kind of thing happens everywhere that there is a Laestadian movement church.But I like you, you indeed seem to be impervious to your church teaching. But I do want to encourage all Apostolic Lutherans and Laestadians. Most of you are on 3rd base,you know that you are a sinner and you know that Jesus is the answer, but you just can't wrap your mind to the truth that you can only receive him by trusting and believing in his work on the cross.you may think you are doing that, but if you are whiteknockuling your church or any church work or sacrament ,God will not place his spirit within you, you will be religious but not saved and not born again, you are on 3rd base,don't remain there,trust in Christ alone and get saved......Matt
    I

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You don't understand. I can't make myself believe. How can i make myself ' trust in Christ and get saved'? If its ANYTHING i do, Gods going to cast it out,' not good enough'. Faith is a gift of God. The Bible says ask and ye shall receive. To receive means its is up to someone to do the giving. Much as i wanted to believe, until God gave me the beautiful gift of faith, i could not believe. And i remember once,talking to one of our ALC preachers about it all. He just beamed a big happy smile and said,God wants you in Heaven even more than you want to be there! It was so reassuring to hear that. Obviously i dont teach my kids to tell the neighbor kids theyre going to hell. But what are you gonna say if someone is living with his girlfriend? Or lying on his taxes? The Bible says liars have their part in the lake of fire.the bible says about fornication,adultery ect that 'they which do such things shall not enter the kingdom of God.' I hear many ppl on this web site saying aps and laestadians are not saved. How different is that? All these ppl are your neighbor kids, in a manner of speaking. It just seems a little self contradicting. Im not trying to be a snit,and i understand that you probably have a genuine concern, but...it doesnt really match up. There is no difference between saying APs are not saved,or a kid saying a neighbor that they THINK is not a Christian is going to hell. You THINK APs are unsaved,so you say the same thing. Not saved means the exact same thing as going to hell. And actually its probably more greivous a crime on your part because i assume you are older than a kid. See? Dont throw rocks if your house is made of glass. And in sorry. You sound like a nice person. In not trying to fight,just being honest. There are so many issues to squabble about,but lets talk about Jesus. Let's talk about His redeeming work on the cross. What blows the warm air of peace over this poor lost humanity? The warm winds of Golgotha. Thats where i can really really believe God would be satisfied with me. Isnt it wonderful?! My little girl is 2, and she loves me to read to her out of our kindergarteners science book. Its a chapter on weather. The book says ' the wind starts to blow,the rain comes down hard. I must stay inside the house. I am safe inside the house. I will not be afraid. God is with me.' And she beams up at me. She loves it. And thats how it is. God has promised that if He begins a work in our hearts, he will finish it' unto the day of redemption'. And he will. He says that if any man lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally. God will show us the way. If we want to be saved,God will work faith in our hearts. He promised,so we know he will.

      Delete
  33. Moderator here: I haven't had time to read all the comments but I can see it is time to close this discussion. What funny creatures we all are! I hope each of us finds the peace and understanding we crave. Be well.

    ReplyDelete